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 3.2 - "Remedial Raiding Patch of '09"

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What do you think about these changes?
I think that these changes devalue the effort it takes to be a raider.
46%
 46% [ 33 ]
I think that leveling the playing field regardless of time and effort is a good thing.
30%
 30% [ 21 ]
I think that these changes don't really matter.
24%
 24% [ 17 ]
Total Votes : 71
 

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Kirotei
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PostSubject: Re: 3.2 - "Remedial Raiding Patch of '09"   6/20/2009, 6:39 pm

There's a lot Blizzard has yet to explain here, and it doesn't help things that there will effectively be four versions of the new dungeon instead of two (10, 10 heroic, 25, 25 heroic). Provided they don't change anything from what they've already announced in the patch notes, I suspect tier 9's badge gear will be equivalent to the 10-man regular instance loot (same tier pieces, same item level). I doubt (hope) they won't put 10/25 regular on the same ilevel - maybe they will put in 25 man gear and it'll just cost a lot more badges, and 25-man bosses will drop more?

EDIT: Another change I found interesting was that while the heroic 5-mans themselves will drop Emblems of Conquest, the regular and heroic dungeon dailies will award 1 and 2 Emblems of Triumph, respectively.
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PostSubject: Re: 3.2 - "Remedial Raiding Patch of '09"   6/22/2009, 9:24 am

Osis wrote:
Okay, I just want to mention that I'm listening to Blue Plz at work right now, and I didn't realize that with this change you will be able to pick up badges for teir 9 by running normal instances. I think that is a terrible change. I'm fine with handing out the badges at one teir below the current raidiing level, but that's pretty retarded to give out current level badges for normal mode dungeons. I was looking at it as a way to avoid needing guilds to go back and do gear runs through old raids to get people ready to hit current stuff, not a way to completely skip the current stuff and still be uber leet.

While true, it's a stretch. The heroic dungeon daily quest will now reward 2 Emblems of Triumph and the normal daily dungeon quest will reward 1 Emblem of Triumph. 2-3 Badges of Triumph takes 35 plus days of relentless Heroic dailies, along with separate normal dungeon dailies, to aquire 75 Badges of Triumph to get a tier piece, CERTAINLY not casual by any stretch. But, a casual non-raiding player will EVENTUALLY get enough for a tier piece, maybe by the time the next patch comes out.
On the plus side for raiders, if you raid AT and run Heroic Dailies, you can gear up quicker.
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PostSubject: Re: 3.2 - "Remedial Raiding Patch of '09"   6/23/2009, 3:44 pm

REALLY??? REALLY??? wow i completely disagree that this will have a negative effect on the game at large, in fact it might help the community...

i am casual, i have a 3 year old son, a daughter on the way, and a job that is slightly demanding, but i raid well, and i know my class... however with the increasing use of gear checks i dont get brought into raids because "your gear sucks" sure i only put out 1700-1800 single target without raid buffs but really as an unholy DK i am more aoe centric anyway. so now i am stuck with the vicious f'in cycle of needing raid gear in order to get into a raid to get raid gear. my guild doesnt raid, and i cant pug without better gear... so what i shouldnt be able to see the content just because i cant devote that much time to raiding constantly? why are so many raiders such elitist jerks?

"OMG BLIZ U SUCK I AM GONNA QUIT BECAUSE YOU RUINED THE GAME" how? how does this ruin the game? look at the conversion ratio. it takes like 68 badges to get the epic chest, which at the four badges per heroic rate means 17 heroics which is a hell of alot more time put into my toon then you would spend in one raid with a lucky drop and a good roll, how the hell does that make you better then me? how does your one boss drop beat my 17 full clear runs? this isnt breaking the farm kiddies, its still going to take me forever to get geared and by then you will be waxing all elitist on something else so stop the QQ...
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PostSubject: Re: 3.2 - "Remedial Raiding Patch of '09"   6/23/2009, 4:35 pm

I have to say the overreaction is prominent among the more vocal raiders out there, but i imagine for the game at large, this will bring about an improvement to the whole and
the older instanced content will be much more friendly for all round gameplay. You can go with friends and not feel you are getting "nothing" out of a heroic or 10 man naxx. It promotes a much more connected, social game then the 4 level badge system otherwise would.

I could understand the gripes more if they were giving out 10 emblems per boss, and giving whole sets of loot away for 100 emblems, but its going to take a regular player weeks of constant instancing/raiding of older content to get 1 or 2 items of a similar (maybe even lower - we havent seen the items remember! This is just going from a historical badge vendor viewpoint) level to the penultimate tier of equipment.

On the other hand im not sure they should give away ANY of the NEW badges from doing a daily dungeon you can hit at 77+. However even that change will not ruin the game, since it would take a very long time pulling 1-3 badges per day doing daily dungeons/heroics to even get a sniff at an item. Say you play 5 nights a week for a month. thats 60 Badges. Thats 1 item, for a steady 1 month of work. People mention time and effort? That is time and effort right there.

Summary: People hitting high end content get high qty of top end loot + Regular badges for the current tier items. Players NOT raiding top end stuff will get a small amount of items over long extended periods of time.

Good change imo.

EDIT: Even though there wasnt a perfect option to choose i voted for--

I think that leveling the playing field regardless of time and effort is a good thing.

But i do not agree the way the wording is twisted.
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PostSubject: Re: 3.2 - "Remedial Raiding Patch of '09"   6/23/2009, 5:40 pm

Sorry, there wasn't an "Insert your answer" option. lol

I do have to say, reading everyone's opinions on the matter has definitely given me some perspective on this subject. I appreciate everyone who has taken the time to voice their opinion!
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PostSubject: Re: 3.2 - "Remedial Raiding Patch of '09"   6/23/2009, 7:40 pm

i listened to a certain podcasts and some of the people acctually like it, i do not see why that is. i think it just makes the game more and more easier
blizz just wants EVERYONE (yes everyone in entire freakin world of warcraft) to see the crusader colleseum so they give all people who cant the epics they need to go towards there
im going to say this only once because it is stupid and hurtfull

THIS IS THE MOST STUPIDEST SHIT BLIZZARD HAS FUCKING CREATED AND THEY ARE ONLY HELPING CERTAIN PEOPLE, AND THE OTHER PEOPLE ARE GOING TO GET SO FUCKING SCREWED, IF BLIZZ CONTINUES TO FUCK UP THE RAIDING SYSTEM, I WILL QUIT, I WILL SERIOUSLY QUIT, THIS GAME WONT BE WORTH PLAYING IF YOU START AND ONCE YOU REACH A HIGH LVL, THEY GIVE YOU FREE FUCKING EPICS FOR MINIMAL WORK!!!

theres that swear spree again, like on the outladish forums

P.S dont take that sentance seriously, i was just unleashing the anger in a way so that im nice again
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PostSubject: Re: 3.2 - "Remedial Raiding Patch of '09"   6/24/2009, 7:51 am

Let's be realistic, from a serious casual point of view. Consider me, I've been Raiding 25 man Naxx 1 night a week, 10 Man Naxx one night a week, for about 2-3 months. My 25 man raider man has nearly everything he needs (drop damn Chest and Helm token!), and he has all the Valor and Heroism badge gear he needs. My 10 man is quckly gearing, and will be near that spot soon.
At some point soon, we'll move to Ulduar, and we'll soon have no need for the lower tier tokens. As it is now, I have no need for the lower tier tokens, and I'm actually buying Heirloom items and sending them to low level alts. I can only imagine how many useless badges some of you more hardcore players have sitting around, and I imagine they're also either collecting dust, or going towards heirloom gear.

A guildmate used a phrase that I like. He said that he thinks Blizzard has finally realized how quickly their raid & dungeon content "expires". Naxx has nearly expired, Heroics has already expired, and soon, Ulduar will expire. So, with every major content patch, expect to see a fire sale on the expired content, i.e. nerfs and badge changes.

If you don't like that Blizzard is essentially nerfing content and making gear easier to acquire, you're essentially saying people should work just as hard as you to get the same stuff. While I totally agree, Blizzard does not, or else they'd NEVER nerf content. They tried it in Vanilla WoW, didn't like how that turned out, in terms of % of people seeing all the content.

Welfare epics are here to stay, just like RL welfare is.
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PostSubject: Re: 3.2 - "Remedial Raiding Patch of '09"   6/24/2009, 12:08 pm

Chriasas wrote:
If you don't like that Blizzard is essentially nerfing content and making gear easier to acquire, you're essentially saying people should work just as hard as you to get the same stuff. While I totally agree, Blizzard does not, or else they'd NEVER nerf content.

Well as was mentioned previously, I wouldn't say that people running Heroics aren't working as hard as the raiders do, they are just putting in a different kind of effort, namely time. It's actually kinda twisted in a way. This change seems to be targeted at the players who have less available time to raid, so they are giving them a way to get the gear by running a mad amount of "lesser" dungeons. So the people with less time now get to spend more time than the raiders running dungeons to gear up. Kind of ironic in a way.
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PostSubject: Re: 3.2 - "Remedial Raiding Patch of '09"   6/25/2009, 6:23 pm

I think we really need to clear up some things. Mainly, what makes you Hardcore? And what makes you Casual? I’m tired of all the “Casual” player bashing. Somehow the term Casual has started to mean Stupid/inexperienced/ self-entitled/ noob.

Are you hardcore because you’re good at your class/classes? Or because you spend 40+ hours a week playing? Does casual mean crappy? Or just that you don’t play as much?

I would probably say that Hardcore is based off the amount of time you spend in game, not a skill level. But then would I conceder someone who plays 40+ hours a week questing/gathering/crafting Hardcore? Even if they don’t do any Raiding?

Are casual players only people who log on a few times a week if that? Do most of them suck and not know their class, let alone others? (I have had a lv. 70 ask my Mage if I could heal for them, and when I laughed he called me a looser who plays WoW all day… b/c I knew Mages don’t heal) Do casuals not understand how to stay out of the fire? I know plenty of people who play 40+ hours a week yet can’t seem to get out of the DAMN FIRE (my main is a healer lol).

I struggle with the idea of Hardcore Vs. Casual because I don’t know what I would consider myself. I have been playing since shortly after release, I have every class past 70, but only two 80’s. For the last two years I’ve only played an average of 6-10 hours a week (usually in 1-2 hour sessions, sometimes I get a free Saturday and am able to attend a raid). My Main, 80 Priest Yhorn on Duskwood is decently geared. Duel spec’d Disc/Shadow, a mix of Nax/EoE 10/25 man gear, heroics and badge/rep loot. I would consider myself to be at an elitist jerk skill level, I know most classes inside and out. But I play about as much as a “Casual” player.

Raiding just doesn’t fit into my life on a regular basis, and if I do happen to get a free 3+ hours in a row to play I usually don’t know until the day of. For me, the only reason I’m not in Ulduar on a regular basis is due to lack of time. So when people just assume that “Casual” player suck and can’t do high end content because they can’t handle it, it pisses me off a bit.

I guess you should ask yourself this: “What makes you entitled to Epics? The amount of time you can spend in game? The ability to gather 25 people for 4 hours? Or your skill?”

Personally I think skill should determine your worth. I think Blizzard need to make harder short 5 mans. Two instances I think Blizzard did a Amazing job on was ZA and EoE. Well I wish the mounting the dragons in EoE wouldn’t mess up my UI addons, but besides that it’s great. My only wish is that they would make 5 man versions. I don’t see how lessening the time it takes to complete the instance, or the amount of people to run it makes it any less difficult content. All increasing the time or people needed does is make it more difficult to find people to run the full thing. Not because there’s not enough skilled people, but because there’s not enough skilled people that are willing to put the game before their RL. In reality, lessening the amount of people required makes it harder. Each person is more vital and has to be on top of their game. Often there are 3-5 people pretty much being carried in 25 mans. It’s easier to get loot by mooching off good people for four hours then have to work hard for 40 min. in a 5 man.

I think the solution would be to have 5-man Heroic Hard modes, or just new 5 man heroics that are actually…I don’t know… HEROIC?

Well there’s my 70 cents (way to long to just be 2 cents.. sorry about that)
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PostSubject: Re: 3.2 - "Remedial Raiding Patch of '09"   6/26/2009, 8:59 am

Hardcore vs. Casual, IMHO.

By Casual, I mean dedicated players that raids 1-2 days a week. They want to complete things and progress in content. Hardcore, I mean players that like to be completists, wringing all content and Hard Modes from a raid, spending 4 or more days a week raiding 2-4+ hours until they get it all figured out. Neither is better, if anything it's all about the individual playstyle.

I consider myself Casual, because I won't dedicate myself to a firm hard schedule every week. I sign up for raids when they fit my and my wife's schedule, and I am VERY serious about progression when I am raiding. I sorta like Stompalina's "softcore" description.
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PostSubject: Re: 3.2 - "Remedial Raiding Patch of '09"   6/26/2009, 10:13 am

I was thinking of starting a blog from the perspective of an "Elitist Raider" about changes that Blizz make just so that i can let that little demon out for fun and vent my frustration and stranglely Hardcore Vs Casual was gonna be my first topic in light of the 3.2 Emblem changes (seemed like a damn good place to start!).

Funnily enough when i sat at the computer (coincidently a mac, furthur dropping my social standing and perpetuating the Elitist stereotype) and turned the speakers up to drown out all other sound with Arch Enemy (again coincidently I listen to metal, added to the mac...theres no hope for me) and I hit a roadblock, what the hell is Hardcore? What does casual mean? Why is that son of a bitch using my drive to turn his frekking car around?! RAWRR!!

The more I try to define those words the more my head hurts and my blood boils. For example Chriasas' opinion puts me in the Hardcore bracket whereas I would not consider myself to be Hardcore. My personal opinion of what constitues a casual player includes no raiding. The lines will never be clearly defined, no matter how hard anyone tries to define them.

Opinions are assholes, everyones got one. As a result there will always be "Us & them"

All in all "We" will always be right and "they" will always be wrong

Still thinking about the blog idea though, i dunno why i have this need to be socially excluded and perhaps hated. But i sure as hell feel better after a wall of text rant lol


Last edited by Divo on 6/26/2009, 10:15 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Spelling Mistake)
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PostSubject: Re: 3.2 - "Remedial Raiding Patch of '09"   6/26/2009, 4:20 pm

Like I've said before, I've seen both sides of this argument. What exactly is considered hardcore and casual? There's really more than just 2 categories. There are several and most people fall into more than one.

Hardcore Raider: Someone who beats his/her head against the wall of whatever boss they are looking at day after day, boss after boss until they've cleared everything "end - game".

Hardcore Collector: Someone who has to collect every pet, every mount, every profession pattern and any other "collection" they can think of.

Harcore Achiever: Someone who has to get every achievement possible. They've already conquered Seeker, Explorer and the Insane.

Hardcore Gamer: Someone who wants to do it all, wants to see it all, wants to collect/achieve it all. Not just total, but NOW, Dammit!!! Has to be first, best, always, and must look stylish while doing it !!

Casual Raider: Still wants to see everything, but does it at a slower pace. They may have to wait until they're 80 to visit Hyjal/BT/Sunwell, but that's ok. At least they can say they've seen it.

Casual Collector: Only collects the pets, mounts, recipes, dress up clothes ( :D ) they want to.

Casual Achiever: If they don't have every achievement, it's not going to stress them out. They only do the ones they want and if they get one on accident, so much the better.

Casual Gamer: Takes things a bit slower than the Harcore Gamer, but still wants the best for their characters. while they may not be first or best, they get what they aim for, eventually.


Everyone, who plays WoW, is connected with their characters. The longer you've played the character, the deeper the connection. Hell, I changed mains and had to keep a similar name because it confused any new people when the veterans would call me by my old main's nickname. I will always be "Cat", it doesn't matter if my toon's name is totally unrelated, that's what I'm known as.

So, they've given "casuals" the opportunity to get similar gear. If they really wanted the items, they would eventually get it. it will still take longer than those that consider themselves to be "hardcore".

Now, everyone play nice, have make up sex and have a cookie afterwards. lol
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PostSubject: Re: 3.2 - "Remedial Raiding Patch of '09"   6/30/2009, 1:41 pm

I really don't care about the badges of conquest. This is a natural move to make since the content is shifting a new level 80s shouldn't still be raiding Naxx and Ulduar just to get into the Coliseum.

BUT, giving same tier badges as the daily quest reward is simply retarded, especially since every tier piece is buyable for tier 9. I don't care if it's going to take months just to get one piece, if you don't raid the current content you shouldn't be able to get the gear from it.
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PostSubject: Re: 3.2 - "Remedial Raiding Patch of '09"   7/1/2009, 6:40 pm

I see where you're coming from on getting the new tier badges from daily dungeon quests. But honestly, you don't think doing the daily dungeon quest every day for 1.5 months straight earns the the right to one piece of T9 gear? And this is assuming they do both them almost every day, don't get a fail group or random dc/alt+F4 that causes them to end the instance mid way through. The next expansion will come out by the time they get 3 pieces.

There will be more scrubs in T9 gear that got it from riding on the coat tails of good players (the 2-5 bottom raid members) than "Casuals" that get it from grinding dailies for months. You don't need to be a "good" player to get high end gear currently, you just need time. If anything, this change will allow more skilled players to get top end gear.

C'mon, how many of you have ran with Top Geared Healers that cant handle a tight situation on Heroics? Or blame their shitty healing on the fact that HEALBOT isn't working? How many Top Geared tanks don't notice adds beating on their healers? I just finished leveling my Alt Lock to 80, ran 25 man VoA and was #1 on dps (only 3k dps), but i was in all Herloom/quest greens/dungeon blues. There were other dps in Ulduar gear!!! Some of them doing below 2K dps!! And they were standing in shit!!!

Reality is that it's easier for a non skilled player with lots of time to get top end gear, than it is for a skilled player with little time. I understand that this change also lets the non skilled people without time to get gear as well. But i have more respect for a crappy player that spent months grinding, than a 1/2 decent one who leaches off of 20 other people one night.
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PostSubject: Re: 3.2 - "Remedial Raiding Patch of '09"   7/18/2009, 11:50 pm

I support the new badge system they are going to... i will make some points here.

1. When BoJ was out in BC it was first just Kara level gear, then they added SSC/TK gear with the ZA patch, than when Sunwell came out they placed in BT/MH gear to the BoJ system. Nothing is changing here. If anything they made it harder for the casuals to get gear right now as of 3.1.2

2. BoTriumph are going to be the new tokens. The hardcore/regualr raidiers will get access to the BoT gear first as they will actully be able to accumulate those badges faster than the casuals so Hardcores like myself don't fret.

3. Going threw all the BoC, BoV, BoH and now the BoT there are no weapons, no full tier sets(you can only get a 2pc bonus as of now((except for BoT which yet again it will take casuals along time to gt one piece while the hardcore will already have the full set if they want to)) ), Crappy trinkets. So with the badges you can buy all of your armor pieces, neck, rings, trinkets and Offhand/relic/wands. But the gear will not line up right for instance a person in full badge gear that plays a boomkin will either have way to much haste/crit ratio or crit/haste ratio, boomkins have to share itemization with resto druid gear as when you can you avoid spirit etc.

4. This is great for people with alts so hardcores if you have a newly minted 80 you can get some easy gear for when your guild does alt runs to fill in the gaps in your gear that you have not got drops for.

All I have to say on this. Hardcore/normal raidiers will still get awarded with the best gear while the casuals will still be a full tier behind you.
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PostSubject: Re: 3.2 - "Remedial Raiding Patch of '09"   7/21/2009, 5:53 am

If you kept track of Blizzard's thoughts about TBC and how they implemented that badge system, you would have seen that they thought it was a mistake. They did it for the same reason they had to develop the 2.4 patch and Sunwell, because the expansion was taking so long to release and people were getting anxious and bored. They said they weren't going to revert to that type of system again, instead, release content a little faster than some of the content patches took in TBC. With this new change it has become something different. It is because they want everyone to see the new instance. It essentially is a gear soft reset. Here are Bornakk's quotes about the subject:

"Some people may not play a lot but are capable of clearing new content. The new system will provide a faster way for people to gear up and get to the new content. Without this change you'd continue to see some players (possibly new players) asking for Naxx groups after 3.2 is out which usually leads to mockery of some sort in the trade channel (in my experience). The new system will allow them to more quickly get the gear to focus on a place like Ulduar and possibly the 3.2 content itself which will be easier to find a group for and more enjoyable as it is newer."

"It's not that the Naxx-level content is being phased out but is becoming more accessible. Some players want to jump to the latest content, sure, and the new system should allow them to go through it faster and get to the latest content. We are trying to avoid forcing players to spend ~2 months in Naxx before going to Ulduar then ~2 months there before going to the Coliseum."


This makes total sense from a business perspective, but in terms of improving the game, it doesn't. There is no good argument saying that this "improves" the game, it only opens it up. Having a next tier of raiding progression to look forward to was an exciting thing back before I was hardcore raiding. It is essentially removing progression for those that haven't reached the hardmodes in Ulduar. Cheat codes and hacks always ruined games after you used them. It was never the same playing the game without them after you used them. This isn't exactly the same thing, but to me it feels similar. It cheapens the fun of the game, by diluting some of the challenges of it.

Do I think the main reason that casuals are not clearing Ulduar is time? No I don't. A skilled casual player and a bad casual player will give you the same excuses, time. If a skilled player surrounded him/her self with other skilled players, they could run Ulduar 1-2 days a week and have killed 10 man Algalon already. I know of guilds like this. I am from a hardcore 25 man raiding guild, I have had my Ironbound Proto for almost a month, so I have a much different perspective than the many casuals posting in this thread, whether you are skilled or saying you are. Doing 1600 damage to a single target is not casual, it's bad, no matter what your gear. If you're 70, 1600 dps was good in BT, but in Sunwell people would almost double that. Now you're 80, learn your rotation please, for the sake of those you run with. Most of us in our community that I have talked to about this feel it's just a lazy way of designing and we hope that this game that started very much hardcore, finds a way to keep us interested because the trend has been to keep taking away from us to give to casuals, which can be ok, as long as they don't forget us.
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PostSubject: Re: 3.2 - "Remedial Raiding Patch of '09"   7/21/2009, 10:21 am

Tox wrote:
Do I think the main reason that casuals are not clearing Ulduar is time? No I don't. A skilled casual player and a bad casual player will give you the same excuses, time. If a skilled player surrounded him/her self with other skilled players, they could run Ulduar 1-2 days a week and have killed 10 man Algalon already. I know of guilds like this. I am from a hardcore 25 man raiding guild, I have had my Ironbound Proto for almost a month, so I have a much different perspective than the many casuals posting in this thread, whether you are skilled or saying you are. Doing 1600 damage to a single target is not casual, it's bad, no matter what your gear. If you're 70, 1600 dps was good in BT, but in Sunwell people would almost double that. Now you're 80, learn your rotation please, for the sake of those you run with. Most of us in our community that I have talked to about this feel it's just a lazy way of designing and we hope that this game that started very much hardcore, finds a way to keep us interested because the trend has been to keep taking away from us to give to casuals, which can be ok, as long as they don't forget us.

I agree that everyone should learn their rotations and maximize their potential. In my experience the most skilled players i have come across have been casual raiders like my self. There is a large player base that IS capable of clearing Ulduar but just simply can't dedicate 4 straight hours to the game due to real life obligations (Work, Family, Friends, Wife, Husband, Kids, etc.).

Believe it or not, there are actually people who refuse to say "Sorry i can't, I have a raid tonight." I'm not saying it isn't ok for those who want to make WoW a priority. But i'm saying your skill is not based on the large chuncks of time you can spend within game. Yet raiding is.

Really the large difference between a skilled/non skilled player is usually based on time they spend "Out of the Game." By that i mean researching. Looking up fights. Reading blogs/sites about your Class/Spec. And even though Elitist Jerks (the web site) may seem hard core, it's actually suited for "Casuals." We can read it during our lunch at work, print it out and read it on your commute (train, buss, etc.), have it on the screen while you're waiting for dinner to finish.

I have accepted that i will not be able to be on the bleeding edge of raiding because i'm not willing the put WoW before RL. But i can say for a fact it is not because i am not skilled enough, it's just that i can't dedicate X amount of hours to WoW in a row.
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PostSubject: Re: 3.2 - "Remedial Raiding Patch of '09"   7/21/2009, 1:27 pm

Fair enough. But if you can't do something then, whether it's because you can't dedicate time to it or like others that are are just not good enough, then why should the rewards be the same? Without playing Mario for a long enough time, you don't rescue the princess. Without practicing free throws for a long time, you'll never be too successful from the line. Every game takes time to get good at or progress in, and traditionally in WoW you are rewarded with gear by doing so, since our characters cannot go past level 80. Changing the reward system to make it easier is devaluing the game. I can understand if some people disagree with me, but at least try to see where were are coming from.
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PostSubject: Re: 3.2 - "Remedial Raiding Patch of '09"   7/21/2009, 2:55 pm

Tox wrote:
Changing the reward system to make it easier is devaluing the game. I can understand if some people disagree with me, but at least try to see where were are coming from.

I do see where you're coming from. And to be honest, I had the same reaction at first. I use to be a hardcore raider in Vanilla and BC.

My ideal solution would be for Bliz would make harder quick 5 mans. And those 5 mans would have top end rewards. 5 mans where you actually have to use CC. 5 mans with movement mechanics. 5 mans where the 3 dps have to coordinate. Where a healer has to do more than just click Healbot. I don't see why you need 10,25,40 people to make an Interesting/Hard fight. Hell, you could make awesome fights with 3 People.

I don't want Bliz to make anything easier Skill wise, just less time consuming. I understand why they cant just make Heroics harder (would ruin the progression path), but wish Heroics would feel... i dono.. Heroic?

I wish this change didn't make it easier skill wise to get gear, but i'm glad it at least makes it easier Time wise to get gear. But like i said in a earlier post: I have more respect for a crappy player that spends 1.5 months to get one piece of gear than a mediocre player that spends 4 hours in a row just skating by for one day getting 1-4 pieces. And there is still a Full Tier of gear that only hard core raiders or people who can dedicate the time can get.
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PostSubject: Re: 3.2 - "Remedial Raiding Patch of '09"   7/21/2009, 3:08 pm

Quote :
My ideal solution would be for Bliz would make harder quick 5 mans. And those 5 mans would have top end rewards. 5 mans where you actually have to use CC. 5 mans with movement mechanics. 5 mans where the 3 dps have to coordinate. Where a healer has to do more than just click Healbot. I don't see why you need 10,25,40 people to make an Interesting/Hard fight. Hell, you could make awesome fights with 3 People.


I agree with you on this! See my post here for more.
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PostSubject: Re: 3.2 - "Remedial Raiding Patch of '09"   7/21/2009, 3:35 pm

A very challenging 5 man dungeon sounds really fun to me. Blizzard has said in the past it is very difficult to design a dungeon that is very hard for only 5 players. But if they could do this then I'm all for it. But that still wouldn't change how much time you would spend. If an encounter is hard, it is going to take a longer to master naturally. Harder 5 mans only solve the "can't find enough people" problem. They don't solve the "I don't have enough time" problem.
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PostSubject: Re: 3.2 - "Remedial Raiding Patch of '09"   7/21/2009, 3:36 pm

Tox wrote:
Harder 5 mans only solve the "can't find enough people" problem. They don't solve the "I don't have enough time" problem.

Less time finding up to 40 people to go with=more time to try content.
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PostSubject: Re: 3.2 - "Remedial Raiding Patch of '09"   7/21/2009, 3:41 pm

I've never gotten 40 players together to raid. This isn't Vanilla. They have reduced it by 30, to 10 players to see the exact same encounters. The way they balance the classes, a 10 man is pushing it, let a lone a 5 man that would offer minimal party buffs to assist you in a super hardcore 5 man.

You guys do realize this is an MMO right? While I agree they should give this mythical 5 man a shot at creating, one of the challenges for this game is interacting with other people to accomplish things. Without this aspect it changes the nature of the game.
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PostSubject: Re: 3.2 - "Remedial Raiding Patch of '09"   7/21/2009, 4:43 pm

Tox wrote:
You guys do realize this is an MMO right? While I agree they should give this mythical 5 man a shot at creating, one of the challenges for this game is interacting with other people to accomplish things. Without this aspect it changes the nature of the game.

I see what you're saying about "Keeping it an MMO"

If we can bring it down to 5 mans, why not 3 mans? Why not solo? Oh wait, now it's not an MMO anymore.

But the majority of the game consists of soloing/questing and 5 mans. I don't think changing the endgame to 5 mans would ruin the game. Assuming you actually make the 5 mans hard.

It isn't the endgame raids that make it an MMO, it's the World feel. It's the cities, the landscape, the auction house, banks, chats, etc. It's a MMO because it's made to feel like there is a whole world filled with other living people that you can engage with. Changing the amount of people for end game doesn't affect that at all. Hell, the majority of the people playing don't even see the end game.

And they have successfully made a hard/skill based quick 5-man. They did it somewhat with the sunwell patch with Magisters Terrace. The only problem is that they did not match the difficulty with the rewards. By the time they introduced the instance it was easier to blow through Kara and get better/more rewards, so very few people would even do Heroic Magisters Terrace.
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PostSubject: Re: 3.2 - "Remedial Raiding Patch of '09"   7/21/2009, 6:42 pm

DraftingDave wrote:
It isn't the endgame raids that make it an MMO
When you are spending most of your time in the end game raids, then yes it is. How could you argue against this? The end game is the only thing keeping the MMO alive. It's the life blood of an MMO. Raids are the best way to define a game like this.



Magisters Terrace wasn't hard enough. Not saying it wasn't harder than the other 5 mans. If they could somehow design a 5 man encounter that was so complicated that it took a similar amount of time to learn and defeat as some of the raid bosses, then that would be a success. Now they would really have to make the gear worth while for something like that, but I'm sure their designers could come up with something. But they aren't focused on 5 man progression. But I do think the possibility is there.
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