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 Episode 34: Re. The kid that doesn't know his role...

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Emeny
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PostSubject: Episode 34: Re. The kid that doesn't know his role...   9/1/2009, 10:44 am

Hey Guys,

I was just listening to episode 34 where you offer some advice to a parent that is struggling to inspire his child to be interested in the role he should be playing in the game.

Your advice was fair, I liked Haf's suggestion on cutting his play time down if he messes up. However, I'd like to offer my perspective on this as I think you missed something that stands out as quite obvious to me.

Perhaps this kid just doesn't enjoy WoW!!

That may seem a blasphemy but WoW really isn't for everyone. It seems to me like the parents here really want their kid to play this game (evidence being how they've boosted him this far) but it seems the kid isn't so keen.

Maybe he's bored, maybe the game doesn't click for him or it's proving too complicated for him as his character develops.

I'd suggest that the parents here sit down with their kid and ask him what he really makes of the game. Does he want to play on and learn his role or would he rather be cut free and allowed to play whatever takes his fancy?

It could be that your boosting him has ramped up the complexity of the character without keeping pace with your kid's understanding of the game. Sitting down with him and running him through a tutorial on how to play might solve this and bring him back up to speed (if he cares to do so).

Alternatively your kid might confess this game isn't for him and he's bored by it, and if that's the case then you should accept this and move on.

That's my two cents on this.

Emeny.
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PostSubject: Re: Episode 34: Re. The kid that doesn't know his role...   9/1/2009, 1:27 pm

Fair point. And, one that is equally as valid as what we discussed. We seem to be getting slandered for offering our opinion and recommendation to the listener's e-mail. The fact is playing any game with your child is an opprotunity to teach values and ethics. It is the same with Baseball, Football or any other traditional sport. If your child shows interest in doing something like that, it is our responsibility as parents to guide them in doing it the right way, teach them etiquette in dealing with other players, and use the opprotunity to nurture their interests.

On the occasions that our son plays with us, we talk about why you assist someone's target, what CC is for, how to control his pet, etc. We don't plop him in front of the PC and start running him through instances. That isn't fun for anyone.

And, yes... finding out what game attributes your child likes/doesn't like might lead to interest in other games. I agree. Fortunately, our spawn LOVES math and is excited about comparing upgrades and seeing his stats go up. So, the mechanics of the game is something that we share and talk about. But, different strokes for different folks...
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PostSubject: Re: Episode 34: Re. The kid that doesn't know his role...   9/1/2009, 2:05 pm

I'm going to throw my bits and pieces into the mosh (sp.) pit that is raising your children:

Let them act retarded. If there's one place where a kid can do that and not get hurt its the online space. If s/he can read, they'll know why these people are upset at them... it may hurt their feelings... but I've always found I best learn from screwing up. And if they don't like the game, they'll just stop playing it.

I like Stomp and Haf's reading-to-play idea... but don't force them to play with you. My parents used to try and play F-Zero with me back in the day and I hated it. It wasn't because they were bad... it was because sometimes kids don't want to hang out with their parents.

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PostSubject: Re: Episode 34: Re. The kid that doesn't know his role...   9/1/2009, 2:24 pm

World of Warcraft is NOT a game for unsupervised kids under 13 years old. So, no... we would never let our kid run loose without us in-game. Besides, letting unsupervised willy-nilly kids run around Azeroth is not very fun for the people he, or any other kid under 13, would encounter in-game.

Club Penguins, Free Realms, Plants vs. Zombies... those are the age appropriate games for our kid to play alone. Never WoW.
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PostSubject: Re: Episode 34: Re. The kid that doesn't know his role...   9/1/2009, 2:42 pm

Stompalina wrote:
Fair point. And, one that is equally as valid as what we discussed. We seem to be getting slandered for offering our opinion and recommendation to the listener's e-mail. The fact is playing any game with your child is an opprotunity to teach values and ethics. It is the same with Baseball, Football or any other traditional sport. If your child shows interest in doing something like that, it is our responsibility as parents to guide them in doing it the right way, teach them etiquette in dealing with other players, and use the opprotunity to nurture their interests.

Fair enough, but to sit a kid down and have them read gaming strategy, and limit their playing time based on making mistakes doesn't make sense. Using your example above are you going to sit your kid on the bench for a game or two if they drop a fly ball and make them watch How-to videos?

Growing is a process that involves making mistakes.
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PostSubject: Re: Episode 34: Re. The kid that doesn't know his role...   9/1/2009, 2:46 pm

Very true. I would also say that no one other than a child's parent knows how the child is being raised, the pace at which he picks up information, and his interest level in learning various aspects of the game. I would NEVER put our kid into an instance with a group at this point, but at 11 years old, I can see where the listener is gauging his kid's interest level and developing it into learning the mechanics of the game. Maybe the kid is interested in math and doesn't know that their is an entire itemization aspect of the game... who knows until you try...
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PostSubject: Re: Episode 34: Re. The kid that doesn't know his role...   9/1/2009, 2:51 pm

Agreed. No one knows until you let them try. But if the person asking for advice takes what you've offered, and punishes them or restricts them for failing what do you teach the child. It seems to me that would only teach them to not go out on the limb to try. But it isn't for me or anyone else to correct parenting.

Just my 2 cents... well 4 at this point.
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PostSubject: Re: Episode 34: Re. The kid that doesn't know his role...   9/1/2009, 2:53 pm

The punishment thing was in jest. I thought that was clear.
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PostSubject: Re: Episode 34: Re. The kid that doesn't know his role...   9/1/2009, 3:23 pm

Some Dude wanted to know how to get his step-son to care about progressing his character. That's a bit of a loaded question, given that we don't know the full dynamics of their relationship. Maybe the young Hunter doesn't like playing with his step-father. Maybe he's just not destined to be a min/maxing power gamer. Maybe he isn't into WoW as much as SD would like, but plays just to be social or hang out with Guildmates who happen to be RL family and friends. Maybe he doesn't like school, and being told to learn things about a video game turns him off of it?

At the end of the day, you can't MAKE him care. He has to WANT to care.

I think we've all been there when we first cut our teeth in-game. A bad pull, a heal that came too late, pulling aggro, bad times all around. The moment left a bad taste in our mouth, and we educated ourselves so that it wouldn't happen again. We watched how other people played, read tips and strats. Researched. Learned. Evolved.

Okay, most of us - See Chat, The Barrens.

It's not an issue of age as much as it is maturity. Some people care and improve, some don't. You find that in players of all ages. Perhaps the young Hunter isn't quite ready for CC yet. Maybe just running around with his pet kitty is more his speed, doing quests and picking Herbs.

I think the more important thing would be to find out what the son likes about playing the game. Cultivate that interest and build on it from there.

Or, maybe the young Hunter is just not meant to play World of Warcraft yet. It happens.
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PostSubject: Re: Episode 34: Re. The kid that doesn't know his role...   9/1/2009, 5:13 pm

I understood the Punishment comment as a joke, but the responses to it made me think...

WoW offers a lot of opportunities to demonstrate things to kids in a world they are interested in. Ususally, I end up trying to explain concepts like preparation, teamwork, etiquette and consequences in terms my kids aren't interested in or dont really understand yet. But, they care about games.

There is an issue where punishment would be called for. Like most of life, there is an etiquette in WoW. It is my job to teach my kids how to act in public. WoW is no different. If my kid makes a mistake in a ball game, I tell her to dust herself off and get back in the game. Then, later, talk over what happened and work on being ready for next time.

If she misses a ball, and throws the bat at the pitcher, sits down and pitches a screaming fit, or any of the other joys of child tantrum throwing, then more abrupt and less 'supportive' responses are called for.

It's entirely possible the kid just isn't into it. Its probable he isn't as into certain aspects as his step-dad. But, if he is going to spend time in the world, he should at least have the proper way to conduct himself presented to him. And as the parent in the situation, it's his way that will be presented as proper.

As the kid, it's proper that he fight that every step of the way.
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PostSubject: Re: Episode 34: Re. The kid that doesn't know his role...   9/2/2009, 6:26 am

Stompalina wrote:
Fair point. And, one that is equally as valid as what we discussed. We seem to be getting slandered for offering our opinion and recommendation to the listener's e-mail...

Hey Stomp,

I guess it wasn't meant to be aimed at me but i thought I'd post to be clear that I wasn't having a go at what you guys offered on the podcast.

I just wanted to offer my point of view and promote the sort of discussion this has turned into.

Interesting stuff. I shall have to see how I handle my kids when they get into the online space. Fortunately that won't be for a good few years yet, though quite what our online 'metaverse' will have evolved into by then goodness knows!!

Keep up the good work and don't let the 'slander' get you down, you're entitled to your opinions and we all gladly tune in to hear them!!

Emeny.
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PostSubject: Re: Episode 34: Re. The kid that doesn't know his role...   9/2/2009, 10:44 am

This is not a response to anything said on the Podcast, but just a comment on the discussion happening here.

As far as punishment for a kid goes, i think it is best way (when possible) is to just emphasize the real consequences of their actions, not fabricate a new one.

i.e. If the kid wipes the group, point out the time that is wasted running back to the corpse, the gold wasted on repairs, and how the other players are now upset with him.

I would not recommend fabricating new consequences.

i.e. You wiped the group, now you only get to play for 1 hour next week instead of 2 hours.

As a disclaimer, i'm not a parent yet, and i don't think there are any blanket rules to parenting because each child is so unique.

But since i am fairly young (23) i can still remember how i was parented. And nothing frustrated me more than when my parents would create unrealistic consequences. And if anything, it would push me to make the same mistake again to find out/prove the actual consequences.

I understand that this type of "Punishment" does not work for all situations... A child won't care about the actual consequences of not weeding the yard... they could probably care less if the yard was full of weeds.

But they will care if no one will group with them because they kept ninja looting items because they did not understand the stats.
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PostSubject: Re: Episode 34: Re. The kid that doesn't know his role...   9/2/2009, 11:29 am

All I'm saying is that WoW is a game. Sure it can provide you with life-lessons, but at the end of the day, that is secondary to the fun that you are supposed to have. Don't punish kids for screwing up in-game... don't make them have to read about how to play a class... it doesn't matter. /leave 1 /leave 2 and you're golden. Just have to watch out for whispers... but how many out-of-the-blue tells do you get in a day? Maybe one? The point is: if the kid wants to learn about the game, he will. If s/he doesn't care, they wont. But dont say "oh you earned two hours of play time WITH US!" Jesus, if my folks ever said that I'd just go read my book more.

And if they're too young to play WoW unattended to, then they shouldn't play WoW. Like Stomp said, there's enough other child-friendly mmo's out there that you shouldn't feel pressured to put them in front of that one.

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PostSubject: Re: Episode 34: Re. The kid that doesn't know his role...   9/2/2009, 1:07 pm

I agree with you on the subject of "It's a Game, just enjoy it." And especially in WoW (or any sandbox game) play it how you want. If you want to just stay level 1 and kill critters, then go have fun doing it.

But the problem with MMO's is that (depending on what you do) you are now affecting other people. Ruining someone's Run is like letting your dog shit on someone's Lawn. It's not a big deal, only wastes a few minuets of their time, but no one likes to have their Lawn shat on.

So if you do have a kid that ENJOYS playing WoW, i think it is important to teach them basic etiquettes. Just like you would teach your kid not to litter.

In the case of the guy who wrote into the show i'd say that he should just let his step son solo all the time. If he doesn't enjoy being in groups or progressing his toon, then don't make him.
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PostSubject: Re: Episode 34: Re. The kid that doesn't know his role...   9/3/2009, 8:00 am

Sorry, Emeny. I should have clarified that point. We Beau (http://spouseaggro.com) decided to take his slanted, knee-jerk, childless opinion to his website and totally blew this discussion out of proportion. I was still very heated when you started the thread.

This is a VERY valid discussion, and one that there IS NO RIGHT or WRONG answer for. Every parent's kid is interested in different aspect of different games, and no one knows this better than the parent.
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PostSubject: Re: Episode 34: Re. The kid that doesn't know his role...   9/3/2009, 8:43 am

Just gonna throw my 2 copper in now well after the fact and the initial shock of the whole discussion has died down.

Beau's screamy, cussy, rage-y post was not at Stomp or Haf it was at the IDEAS, concepts and language used in the discussion that ended up on the podcast. The discussion in this forum post has been more thoughtful and balanced than what we initially heard. No one even mentioned on the show the idea of playing more age appropriate games or playing WoW in such a way that doesn't require unnecessary pressure. (ie, having a kid read blogs and boss strats that are written to be aimed at min/maxing adults).

The negative reaction was at the idea of "how do I get my kid to care about progressing his character?" The concept that the kid should be pushed to play "properly" when he obviously doesn't either want to, understand how or care. Here's an example of how I see that question. The writer mentioned that the kid "wants" to run instances. Why? Probably because he sees his parents doing it all the time. That's great for them, not for a kid of 11. Its like a kid saying "I wanna drive a car" because he sees his parents doing it and instead of his parents saying "no, lets go do something else, play with a toy car" they say "ok lets read some driving manuals and put you behind the wheel." Make any sense?

The issue is that the answers and suggestions given on the actual show might have been appropriate if the kid was 16 but not 11. Especially if you are gonna use terms like "huntard" and "jacktard pulls" to describe their gameplay. Even as a joke. Sure make fun of me or any of your guildies saying that stuff (if they are cool with being called a jacktard and all) but when it comes to a kid LIGHTEN UP a tad.

If he's not "succeeding" to your in-game standards in one activity, find a new activity or a new game. BECAUSE it's just a game, not anything that holds any importance in life. If the question was "how do I get my kid to care about doing better with his schoolwork?" the discussion would be totally different and would warrant a level of seriousness befitting words like "punishment" and "study."

As for slander here's a quote from the blog.

"I know Stomp and Haf, they are great parents. I am just pointing most of my criticisms at anyone that would use such a gloriously fun activity as gaming as a chance to embarrass and scare your children. And NO, I am not saying that HAF and Stomp DO. They actually DO NOT."

The extremity of the post was to make a point about taking WoW too seriously, having somewhat unrealistic expectations of a kid and using words like "huntard." The cussing and all that was to drive the point home, kinda like how you told the story about the guy saying he'd come into your house and hit you on the head with a shovel to teach you how to not stand in fires in a raid. (A statement by the way that also pissed me off but for different reasons that have nothing to do with this discussion. Namely, why the hell do people have to be so rude and mean about a friggin game? I'll never understand that but whatever.)
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PostSubject: Re: Episode 34: Re. The kid that doesn't know his role...   9/3/2009, 11:19 am

Here's what i had to say about their post: Wall of text incoming!

First of all, we are basing the whole original argument on the listener’s question of “How do I make my Step Son care about progressing his toon?” From that question, what we take out of it is “How do I force my step son to be better at the game.” Which we then skew into an elitist mind set of “I am a Raider, and everyone should know their class and play like I do!” Since we have not heard anything from the listener, or the step son, we should not jump to conclusions. He may have just worded his question badly.

Here’s how the situation may have been:

The step son takes an interest in the game. You assume it’s from watching the step father play, but it could of stemmed from friends/general media. After playing for a while, he takes an interest in instancing. So the step dad decides to just run him through some instances at first. Then the son runs with a normal group. The step dad, probably looking over his shoulder, notices the son not playing “properly.” Which could mean any number of things. Rolling on cloth gear, leaving growl on, pulling random mobs, not staying with the group, leaving aspect of the cheetah on, etc. The dad tries to inform the step son “That staff with spell power on it is not for you.” But the son doesn’t understand and/or care. Listening to Wrawrcast, he hears stomp and Haf talk about their son, and how they teach him about stats (their son loves math). So he asks them “How can I instruct my son like you do yours?”

Now, I can see how forcing a kid to follow “rules” in a GAME where there are “technically” no rules could make you feel angry.( Like how it angers me to watch Moms parade their daughters through beauty pageants and yell at them for not “walking correctly” or not having enough “sas.”) But really, it all depends on the specific situation, and how the step Dad dealt with it.

Lets look at a similar example. You have an 11 year old. He plays Basketball during recess one day and really likes it. He comes home and says “Dad, I want to play Basketball.” So the dad puts up a Hoop in his backyard and buys the son a Basketball. When the Dad has time, he shoots hoops with his son, but sometimes the Son just plays on his own for fun. After playing for a while the son says “Dad, now I want to be on a team.” So the Dad signs him up for a summer league. So the first game comes along, the son is having a ton of fun, but not knowing the RULES of the game, he keeps scoring on his Own basket, runs with the ball, and keeps fouling people. What should the Dad do then? Should he take him off the team? Should he teach his son the Rules of the Game? Or should he just laugh it off and let the coach bench him every game because he wont follow the rules?

WoW = Basketball

You can play on your own, do what you want, when you want, and not worry about anyone other than yourself. And it is perfectly fine to play like that. But if you want to play with others, there are some rules you need to follow. The rules will vary depending on the seriousness of the situations. If you are just playing with a few friends, you can make up your own rules as long as everyone agrees. If you all like double dribbling, you can decide that it’s OK. If you all hate CC, and would rather AoE everything down, then go at it. But if you’re doing a raid, you can’t run with the ball.

My answer would be to talk to the Son. Ask him how much he wants to play with the team. Let him know if he wants to play with the team, there are some rules he has to follow. If he doesn’t want to follow those rules, then he can just play at home. And that it’s OK if he doesn’t want to play on the team.

Now if the Dad forced the Son to Practice everyday until he was the best basketball player on the team, and forced him to go to games, and not caring about what the son wanted to do, then I would be angry.
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PostSubject: Re: Episode 34: Re. The kid that doesn't know his role...   9/3/2009, 12:30 pm

DraftingDave wrote:


Now, I can see how forcing a kid to follow “rules” in a GAME where there are “technically” no rules could make you feel angry.( Like how it angers me to watch Moms parade their daughters through beauty pageants and yell at them for not “walking correctly” or not having enough “sas.”) But really, it all depends on the specific situation, and how the step Dad dealt with it.


Exactly. That's what I'm saying. I'm basing it on the tone of the letter and the response, which is all any of us can do. I can make my assumtions (for the worse) and you can make yours (for the best). The reason I'm leaning toward taking the letter to mean the worst (Some hardcore raider calling their kid a huntard for not "knowing their role" and how to perfectly play their class to a standard that even some of my own adult guild members might not care to play at) is because it proves a point. I'm not really interested in helping this person parent their kid and I don't really care about them specifically. They can and will do whatever they want with or without my input. I'm just saying all this as a reflection on our behavior as gamers. Respect other people and styles of play that are not PERFECT, especially where appropriate that it not be perfect. Be patient with the people you play with and if it's a waste of time to play with a kid who may mess up now and again, please go do something else for your own sake and the kids. I've seen people get frustrated at a dumb wipe and people shouldn't let their taking the game too seriously spill over into "dammit little Jimmy you are wasting mine and everyone else's time. Lrn2play!!!!". It doesn't feel right me to me. That's fine if you disagree.

I appreciate your basketball analogy but I still think the perspective is off. WoW is not basketball. WoW is a video game that is generally a waste of all our time. A fun waste but nevertheless a waste of time on our butts in front of a computer. As adults it is our choice to spend that time. Basketball is a valid activity. It will actually teach a child how to play with others outdoors and in reality, follow actual legitimate rules and perform or even possibly excel at a sport. He'll even get some exercise while doing it. He might even play for a school team in which it would be something he'd do as part of his educational process.

If you don't agree with my assessment of it that's fine.

I think it is always important, no matter how much you love it (and we all really love it) to relegate WoW to what it really really truly is in life. A video game.
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PostSubject: Re: Episode 34: Re. The kid that doesn't know his role...   9/3/2009, 1:32 pm

LealaTurkey wrote:

Respect other people and styles of play that are not PERFECT, especially where appropriate that it not be perfect. Be patient with the people you play with and if it's a waste of time to play with a kid who may mess up now and again, please go do something else for your own sake and the kids. I've seen people get frustrated at a dumb wipe and people shouldn't let their taking the game too seriously spill over into "dammit little Jimmy you are wasting mine and everyone else's time. Lrn2play!!!!". It doesn't feel right me to me. That's fine if you disagree.

I agree, but from the tone of the letter it sounded like the Son was having troubles with the BASICS of a group, not Min/max, rotations, dps. He's talking about low level instances, not 10-25 man raids.

LealaTurkey wrote:
I appreciate your basketball analogy but I still think the perspective is off. WoW is not basketball. WoW is a video game that is generally a waste of all our time. A fun waste but nevertheless a waste of time on our butts in front of a computer. As adults it is our choice to spend that time.

I spend 40-50 hours a week on my butt in front of a computer making a good living. The majority of the Technilogical work force does. I do also work out every night to keep up my Turpster Appearence Razz but just because WoW is not a physical activity does not make it an invalid use of your time. Is it productive? ...well that's debatable (It defiantly helped me develop skill i now use in the work force), but none the less it is a de-stresser/personal time activity which more parents need to emphasize the importance of to their kids. I defiantly don't advocate more than 1-2 hours a day, but as long as you keep it balanced, then it is a helpful/valid activity.

LealaTurkey wrote:
Basketball is a valid activity. It will actually teach a child how to play with others outdoors and in reality, follow actual legitimate rules and perform or even possibly excel at a sport. He'll even get some exercise while doing it. He might even play for a school team in which it would be something he'd do as part of his educational process.

I'm a little confused weather you think WoW is invalid because it's not physical, or because you are not interacting with people face to face. As far a the physical, like i said above, not every activity you do needs to be physical as long as you do get some physical activity throughout the day. As far as interacting with people in "reality," As a Drafter for a structural Engineering Firm, i interact with more people via the internet than i do in person. And the people who are not able to do so are falling behind and being phased out. Whether you like it or not, face to face interaction is becoming less important.

I'm not saying sports are not at all important (I did Soccer/wrestling/track growing up) and they are a great way to help keep you in shape. But Phisical Acticity is not greater than Mental Activity. They are two parts of a whole. And to say one is more valid than the other is just not true.


LealaTurkey wrote:
I think it is always important, no matter how much you love it (and we all really love it) to relegate WoW to what it really really truly is in life. A video game.

I do agree that some people take it too seriously, but I also think some people don't take it seriously enough. This is where i really view it the same as a sport. Missing a basket/striking out/getting pined/losing a race/missing a shot sucks, but "it's just a game." None the less, if 10/11 people on a Soccer team have been practicing for months to win the game, and the 11th person looses it for them, then the other 10 have a right to be angry.

Even though it is a virtual world, it is your real time/emotions that are being invested into it. And the mind set of "I can do what ever i want, to whoever i want because it is not real" angers me. There are real people behind the screen, and your are affecting them in a real way. It's like those people who get in trade chat and just start saying the most awful things. They think it's OK, because "it's not real."
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PostSubject: Re: Episode 34: Re. The kid that doesn't know his role...   9/3/2009, 2:25 pm

I'm not saying WoW is invalid because it isn't physical. I'm saying it is unimportant in relation to an 11 year old. A kid shouldn't spend a fraction of the time on the computer as you and I do in our work days and free time playing WoW. It should be very low if not last on the kids priority list in life is what I'm getting at.

We aren't talking about an adult who chooses not to care about the game and thus messes around and wipes the raid he's in. Noone thinks that is ok certainly not me. I'm talking about a kid. The standards are different and so should be the activity. If there is something the kid is doing (playing in an group in an instance) that's gonna piss off the people he's with, it is better to just get him out of the instance and into an activity that is appropriate. Why? Because instances in WoW are the least important thing the kid could be doing with his time. I don't see it as important enough to try to hammer it into his head to not pull wrong or CC or whatever they were saying he should be doing.

But that is my super casual playstyle opinion of the game. If people wanna treat it like a job and go all "hardass" on one another while they play that's fine for them. I'm not concerned with how adults play other than that IMHO some people need to lighten the hell up. But again, that's just me.


Oh and good discussion BTW, thanks. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Episode 34: Re. The kid that doesn't know his role...   9/3/2009, 4:41 pm

LealaTurkey wrote:
I'm not saying WoW is invalid because it isn't physical. I'm saying it is unimportant in relation to an 11 year old. A kid shouldn't spend a fraction of the time on the computer as you and I do in our work days and free time playing WoW. It should be very low if not last on the kids priority list in life is what I'm getting at.

It very well might be in this case. There is no mention of how much time per week this kid plays. There's also no mention in the email regarding raiding, hardcore raiding, or both parents being hardcore raiders. In fact, there's no mention that Mom even plays World of Warcraft. So what it comes down to is "They do a great show, but listen to the part about giving advice to a listener on how to get the 11 year old into raiding."

Since they never do that, I have to ask - did we listen to the same podcast? Or does the whole concept of "hardcore raider" send you two around the bend?

Don't get me wrong, I'm no raider and I'm no fan of how some of the more hardcore look down their nose at my playstyle. I pay my subscription, I get what I want out of the game. Going from "how do I get my son to want to play his class better" to "how do I groom him for a raid spot" is a bit of a stretch, don't you think?
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PostSubject: Re: Episode 34: Re. The kid that doesn't know his role...   9/3/2009, 8:20 pm

I have pretty much avoided this subject like the plague because it seems that a lot of people are getting really fired up over something that really isn't as much of an issue as they are making it out to be. So, here is the abridged version of my stance...

1) You didn't hear all of the email because we couldn't possibly have read it all on the show. It was really long. So, most of what has been discussed is simply supposition to support whatever stance you want to make. Play time, level of involvement, etc. If you've formulated a stance on what you heard on the show, you're on shaky ground. I would post it here, but I don't want to see anyone back-pedal on their vehement stances of what is right or wrong. So, stand strong.

2) WoW is a game. Games are to be played. Play is a way to learn. If you're a parent and you don't see the opportunity to turn a kids interest in WoW into an opportunity to teach them something, you are doing it wrong. Yeah I said it. My dad used to put me on his lap when I was 6 and let me "drive" the car. I got to steer in an empty parking lot while he worked the pedals. If I started swerving around like I had lost my mind or steered towards something that might be dangerous, he would stop the car and I would be a passenger again. Fun ends. This guy wants his kid to be conscientious and considerate to other players. It wouldn't matter if he was playing basketball or baseball or playing chess or WoW. He is interacting with others in what his parent thinks is an inconsiderate manner. I would either put him in the others shoes (by playing a different type of toon which is one of the things the kid has already started doing, based on the aforementioned email) or not let him play at all.

3) The terminology I used in regards to saying Huntard or Jacktard is completely relevant in this case and is not directed towards people with disabilities as some have mentioned in another forum. I will be happy to discuss the plight of the disabled in modern society as I have been at the bleeding edge of progress for more than 30 yrs.... but that is for another venue, I suppose. I looked up "retard" on dictionary.com because I know there is more than one definition and it's not always directed (cruelly, I might add) at people with mental or physical disabilities. The definition was: to make slow; delay the development or progress of (an action, process, etc.); hinder or impede. That sounds exactly like the people I am talking about that don't bother learning anything about their class. They simply get in game, mash their buttons and wonder why no one has them on their friends list. It's not a matter of their ability, it's a matter of their interest in learning to play well with others.

So, that is all I have to say about the subject. I will likely not respond back because I haven't bothered really reading any of the rest of the discussion here as it may seriously hurt my arguments. What would be the fun in that?

Ooooh. Some other suppositions to throw in to the mix to keep the discussion rolling... I suppose the kid might be in college because he is wicked smart so he can like read the quests and stuff. He is investing a lot of time in WoW because he was born a merman (half man half fish) so he can't run and play with the other kids outside. Also,his father is actually the head of a gold farming syndicate somewhere in South America and is grooming his kid specifically to take over the family business so he's scrambling to get his kid interest.


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PostSubject: Re: Episode 34: Re. The kid that doesn't know his role...   9/3/2009, 8:51 pm

I recant any prior negative statements towards the kid in question. Let him play his Hunter however he wants.



Mermen have bigger problems than Crowd Control.
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PostSubject: Re: Episode 34: Re. The kid that doesn't know his role...   9/3/2009, 8:59 pm

Quote :
Mermen have bigger problems than Crowd Control.
ROFL
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PostSubject: Re: Episode 34: Re. The kid that doesn't know his role...   9/4/2009, 10:15 am

Quote :
1) You didn't hear all of the email because we couldn't possibly have read it all on the show. It was really long. So, most of what has been discussed is simply supposition to support whatever stance you want to make. Play time, level of involvement, etc. If you've formulated a stance on what you heard on the show, you're on shaky ground. I would post it here, but I don't want to see anyone back-pedal on their vehement stances of what is right or wrong. So, stand strong.

You do realize that if you don't give us key points from the email to discuss then we really aren't on shaky ground, right? We are simply in the ground that was provided to us.


I don't want to discuss this anymore because it's not important, and people are acting dumb over it. Point is: don't let your kids play WoW. If you think that there is some grandiose life-lesson to be found in WoW then you really have some rethinking to do. MMO spaces are, as Leala said, a fun waste of time. I'm never going to ween any life lessons away from the game, and I think if I did I wouldn't be able to look at myself in the mirror.

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