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 Looking for sources on topics covered on The Grind

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Stumpalina
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PostSubject: Re: Looking for sources on topics covered on The Grind   4/15/2009, 6:03 pm

Today I listened to the latest episode of The Grind Podcast. Awesome show... been a fan quite awhile. A topic they covered has my fuming...

Somewhere Ghostcrawler posted that he thinks hardcore raiders will be switching between the dual specs and regemming at each encounter.

While that is a serious debate in itself since most people using dual spec in a raid setting will have separate sets of gear, it turned into David saying that hardcore raiders are buying gold... And, that they are keeping the gold farming/account hijacking assholes in business.

He also referenced a study to support this theory...

But, as great a podcast as they put together each week, they don't post links with the source of the information they discuss on the show. How is this legit? I know every show is run differently, some people are more organized and forthcoming with information than others. But, to say that my niche of hardcore raiders are buying gold is a large stretch. Unless there is a formal study posted somewhere from a credible source, and I can't imagine that there is since I wouldn't even begin to comprehend how they would track this, I am not going to buy into the idea that raiders raid above their means and support buying gold.

And, on a final note, neither Haf nor I support buying or selling of gold. It completely demeans the spirit of the game and causes way more harm than good. Anyone caught buying or selling gold in our guild is put on serious restriction, if not booted from the guild entirely.
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PostSubject: Re: Looking for sources on topics covered on The Grind   4/15/2009, 6:54 pm

Stompalina wrote:
Today I listened to the latest episode of The Grind Podcast. Awesome show... been a fan quite awhile. A topic they covered has my fuming...

Somewhere Ghostcrawler posted that he thinks hardcore raiders will be switching between the dual specs and regemming at each encounter.

While that is a serious debate in itself since most people using dual spec in a raid setting will have separate sets of gear, it turned into David saying that hardcore raiders are buying gold... And, that they are keeping the gold farming/account hijacking assholes in business.

He also referenced a study to support this theory...

But, as great a podcast as they put together each week, they don't post links with the source of the information they discuss on the show. How is this legit? I know every show is run differently, some people are more organized and forthcoming with information than others. But, to say that my niche of hardcore raiders are buying gold is a large stretch. Unless there is a formal study posted somewhere from a credible source, and I can't imagine that there is since I wouldn't even begin to comprehend how they would track this, I am not going to buy into the idea that raiders raid above their means and support buying gold.

And, on a final note, neither Haf nor I support buying or selling of gold. It completely demeans the spirit of the game and causes way more harm than good. Anyone caught buying or selling gold in our guild is put on serious restriction, if not booted from the guild entirely.

I think you misunderstood this segment. As I type this, I'm listening to it now. They (The Grind) is stating that it is in their opinion that the Raiders that swap out gems, gear, spec with each Raid or even bosses buy gold. This is not what GC is stating in every response he's posting.

I think the folks at the Grind are stating their opinion, but it does seem to be a bit ill informed.

I'm sure everyone agrees, most credible raiders don't want to risk their accounts and buy gold. Either way,
here's some links regarding recent research on Gold Farming.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/gold-trading-exposed-the-players-article (discusses who buys gold)
http://www.massively.com/tag/gold-farming/ (Massively's Gold Farming Tag has some great articles)

Read these and you'll get the information you need to rebutt the Grind's arguments.

- Brig
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PostSubject: Re: Looking for sources on topics covered on The Grind   4/15/2009, 7:07 pm

First of all, i like The Grind Podcast and have been listening to them for a while. Although David's Rants are often inaccurate and come to some odd conclusions, they're great conversation starters. How they read and responded to GC's post did make it seem like he was expecting raiders to respec/gem/glyph etc. Having read some of GC's posts on this matter(from memory, cant find the damn links) I believe he said that some raiders have, and will continue to repsec/gem between bosses. But that Blizzard will not be designing raids expecting that of raiders. Personally i think it'd be fun if they did, but that's just me. It would be fun to have a boss where everyone just dps'd and it was on a timmer. Since every class CAN dps it wouldn't be too unfair and could be rather fun. You could require some people to click things so if some people REALLY don't want to have a dps spec they can be running around clicking stuff bounce
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PostSubject: Re: Looking for sources on topics covered on The Grind   4/15/2009, 8:18 pm

My issues with this are threefold:
  1. Expressing an opinion on a documented source without sharing it with others. I guess I am just anal like that. When I form an opinion on something, I share the source with our listeners and readers so they can form their own opinion. They have even been known to change my mind.
  2. If there is a "study" that categorizes hardcore raiders as being the largest contributor to the gold buying marketing within World of Warcraft, I want to know about it.
  3. Don't talk about something you have no idea about. Stick to what you know. If you are a hardcore critter killer in Elwyn Forrest, talk about that. If you are a hardcore raider, talk about that. The fact is YES, most people that will be truly utilizing Dual Spec to its full potential will do so from boss to boss within one instance reset. That idea might (and did indeed appear to) stun someone that isn't a hardcore raider. But, I can't imagine a need to re-gem with each spec. Anyone switching and legitimately making the change to contribute to the raid composition will more than likely have a separate set of gear (DPS/Tanking, DPS/Healing, Healing/Tanking, DPS/DPS MOAR). And, how this turned into a gold buying discussion is beyond me...
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PostSubject: Re: Looking for sources on topics covered on The Grind   4/16/2009, 2:42 am

No idea where they sourced that from and I think such a conclusion is rather out dated now.

Back in Vanilla WoW days I believe hardcore raiders were considered to be buying gold because the level of consumables required on a daily basis was far too extreme. Even credible guilds like 'blank' (sorry I've had a mind fart there) that set world firsts admitted to having bought gold in the past which led to a huge fallout between them and WoW Radio.

Since TBC and especially in Wrath, Blizzard have reduced this stress on raiders and flooded the game with gold so there really is no excuse to be buying any more. Even hardcore raiders can spare an hour or so a day to grind a few dailies and buy up anything they need.

Professions are so much easier to manage and Alchemy in particular has taken a bit of a kicking since pots are so easy to make - all this adds up to a more casual gaming experience even if you are bleeding edge.

As for GC's suggestion that players will be swapping specs during raid weeks...I'm not convinced.

Personally I see absolutly no point in the addition to the game. Sure it's convenient and great if you're a tank/healer and you want to grind but that's about it.

Blizzard can't set up the fights Draft dicussed because to do so assumes that everyone in the game has paid for the dual spec, which cannot happen. So in terms of helping a raid the only advantage this provides is if say your healer doesn't show up or disconnects you have to hand a player that can quickly swap spec and help out.

'Hardcore' guilds aren't likely afflicted by this very often, they have a set rotation of players that they count on and a reliable setup that knows how to execute a plan. Their tanks know how to tank, their healers know how to heal and so on... To suggest that they'll start mixing this up is silly, why would your experience MT suddenly be pushed aside in favour of some wreckless Warrior whose only experience in tanking comes from 5 man heroics? It's just not going to happen...

Plus, I will continue to view my raid setup in the same light I did pre-patch. if you were a healer pre patch then you are when we go into Ulduar. That's your main spec, that's what you're gearing towards and that's the role you excel at. I'm not looking to suddenly mix things up and throw the balance and our progress out the window.

I shall stop here though, I reckon I'm getting into a rant!! Smile

Emeny.
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PostSubject: Re: Looking for sources on topics covered on The Grind   4/16/2009, 7:36 am

I hate to disagree with their "study", however it has been my experience since beta that casual players were/are far more likely to buy gold.

Any hardcore player is ingame a lot more, and ever since the dailies were introduced, have had a lot more disposable income to go toward consumables for their raids.

Whereas casual players don't have as much time to rake in the gold and are more likely to just buy what they need.

I've sat on both sides of this fence over the last four plus years. I have to say that with my more casual playstyle now, I'm far more morally bankrupt and though I don't buy gold, I don't hold it against people who do (if they just don't have time to grind dailies for gold).

I know that a lot of people are forthright against buying gold, and I understand where they are coming from... however like all things, there are several opinions on this matter and there isn't one and only one "right" opinion. I mean sure, there's the Blizzard word of law, but that not withstanding, what I'm talking about is whether or not it is fair to buy gold.

As someone who works full-time, including a lot of overtime, has three kids, a wife and other interests outside of WoW, I can't possibly do everything I'd like to ingame. Meanwhile, someone without a job or family or, well let's be honest, in some cases no life either, can be a god in the game.

That doesn't apply to all hardcore raiders, of course... I'm not trying to generalize.

However this equation stands true:

time = gold

So that being true, my time outside of WoW earning real world gold should be transferable to ingame gold. Time is time.

Someone may choose to use that time for dailies. I use that time to write code and reports and fix computer and network issues. I'm simplifying for the sake of my example of course... and though I don't buy gold, were it made legal in the eyes of the Blizz, I most certainly would.
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PostSubject: Re: Looking for sources on topics covered on The Grind   4/16/2009, 8:05 am

If it was made legal then I wouldn't play the game, it would allow people to buy their way to the top which would undermine any real effort put in by players.

As for the moral issue of buying gold, unfortunately since it isn't legal to do so nor is the methods employed by gold farmers when they mass their wealth.

Account hacks, website hacks and credit card fraud all make up how a gold seller lines his pockets and when you choose to buy from them you are supporting that lifestyle. Don't buy gold and they run out of reasons to steal...

Just my two cents.

Emeny.
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PostSubject: Re: Looking for sources on topics covered on The Grind   4/16/2009, 11:10 am

I agree with you wholeheartedly on that point... which is also why I wouldn't buy gold unless Blizzard implemented a way to do it (such as how they do it in Star Wars Galaxies).

I don't believe in supporting people who hack and steal, etc.
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PostSubject: Re: Looking for sources on topics covered on The Grind   4/20/2009, 6:25 pm

What I got from that discussion, and maybe I wasn't fully paying attention because I listen to all my podcasts at work, was their disbelief that people would be able to afford to re-gem at every encounter, thus the idea that those people may be buying gold was a possibility. Not entirely far-fetched, but obviously not well put together, considering the stir it has caused.
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PostSubject: Re: Looking for sources on topics covered on The Grind   4/21/2009, 1:06 pm

I've been listening to The Grind for a while now (I've even contributed a segment). By far, the most polarizing part of the show for me has been David's rants. His tirades against the woman from the FCC and the company who refused to hire people strictly based on whether or not they played WoW were good ones and I was right there with him. When it comes to his points of view on in-game mechanics and changes, though, I feel that he goes off half-cocked (at best) and doesn't really think his points through enough to responsibly present them in a form of news media. His rant against the spirit changes was a perfect example of this.

Hes' got a good head on his shoulders though, and as a fellow veteran gamer, I share his point of view on a number of things. However, it's come to be one of those things that - if I find myself saying "Dude, what the FUCK are you talking about?" - I just fast forward through it.
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