EXODUS - Did they use an exploit?

We are hoping to get a comment from Joe and Shib this week to play on Saturday's show. But, in case you haven't heard, Ensidia and other top-tier guilds are screaming foul play. Supposedly Exodus found a game exploit that made the encounter less than challenging... I think that 90% of it is Ensidia lighting fires to draw attention from the fact that they missed out on the world-first acheivement.

http://www.wow.com/2009/06/29/world-first-of-alone-in-the-darkness-a-possible-exploit/

from wow.com

World first of "Alone in the Darkness" a possible exploit

by Mike Schramm Jun 29th 2009 at 7:00PM

We reported last week that a guild named Exodus on the US realm of Ysondre had come out of nowhere to topple the world first of the Heroic: Alone in the Darkness achievement, which requires that you bring down the biggest bad currently in the game, Yogg-Saron, with no help from any of the Keepers in Ulduar. But not so fast, says Serennia over at WoWRiot -- over on their forums Ensidia is claiming that Exodus used an exploit, and that their kill doesn't count at all. Apparently, having Thorim help on the fight keeps the "Immortal Guardians" in the last phase of the fight from being a problem, and without Thorim, you have to not only do the fight without his extra 10% damage bonus (each Keeper ups your DPS that much), but you have to deal with the Guardians messing up your melee classes, and oh yeah: they both heal and get healed by Yogg. Not that it's impossible to do it, but it's definitely not easy, and Ensidia claims that Exodus found a known exploit that allows you to evade the Guardians out completely, thus turning the last phase into a straight tank-and-spank, obviously much easier.

After that, it gets into some guild back and forth (Ensidia apparently did something that might have been an exploit on Hodir, and when people call them out on that, they say that the exploits were different -- Ensidia's tactic was just an interesting use of game mechanics, while the exploit Exodus is suspected of using is more of a cheat), but the fact remains that Exodus is clearly not a guild that anyone expected to clear what might be the toughest raiding achievement in the game before anyone else, and yet that's exactly what they did. Ensidia says they won't be killing Yogg for the achievement using the exploit, and that they've reported the Exodus kill to the devs, so we'll have to see if the devs decide that Exodus did cheat, or if they let Exodus keep their achievements and mounts. We're not sure how much it all matters, with world first kills not being all that important any more (and that's exactly what the devs might say as well), but Ensidia is claiming that an exploit took place -- we'll have to see if that turns out to be true.

I don't know exactly what happened, but if they moved these mobs in such a way that they would 'evade' and were no longer part of the battle, then the kill was not legit as the devs would never expect you to win with bugs like that.

If they didn't I am not sure exactly where the controversy lies.

EDIT: It seems that they did exploit the bug:

http://wowraid.com/index.php?topic=424.0

They then lash out big time at top Euro guilds, that just seemed quite childish to me, they perhaps should have left it at "please make it killable".

wow.com confirmed that exodus used an exploit http://www.wow.com/2009/06/29/exodus-punished-for-exploiting-yogg-saron-encounter/

i think this is just dumb, there is no information on the actual exploit!!
and btw, its ensidia that claims that exodus used an exploit, maybe they are just sore loosers

nevermind, kaywarrior admits that he used a bug/exploit in the fight but he fights back with glitches/exploits ensidia used
http://www.exo-guild.com/forums/showthread.php?s=18c4af1c8c6694dc27354ae878585c9a&t=1829

from wow.com: #
Apparently, having Thorim help on the fight keeps the "Immortal Guardians" in the last phase of the fight from being a problem, and without Thorim, you have to not only do the fight without his extra 10% damage bonus (each Keeper ups your DPS that much), but you have to deal with the Guardians messing up your melee classes, and oh yeah: they both heal and get healed by Yogg. Not that it's impossible to do it, but it's definitely not easy,

so its 'not easy' to fight the 'hardest' boss in the game along side with invincible adds...
im thinking this fight is acctually impossible

This reminded me of the old Vanilla WoW Bloodlord Mandokir Wall Exploit, which was basically a Line of Sight exploit. It took them forever to fix, but we as a guild refused to use it, since there was A: a chance it'd be fixed, or B: We might get temp suspension for doing it.

Yes, it was an exploit(seeing the EVADE during a raid is always either a mistake on the raid, or a mistake on Blizzard), so players beware if you do it. If it was found during an attempt, yeah it happens and I don't put the blame on Exodus. If it was their plan to do it, then I guess I have an issue.

What is interesting about this is that there is an accusation that Ensidia used several exploits to get several world firsts, and that they stood because they reported exploits to Blizzard. Sorta wishy-washy to me. I get the feeling that Blizzard Europe is using Ensidia as their unofficial live server testers, and letting them get away with much more than a normal guild would. If there is ANY accusations of favoritism towards Ensidia, there needs to be an investigation.

As an aside, the whole thing on both sides smacks of drama. The fact that they're using language, oh yeahs, and stop whining, comes across as a bit unprofessional. IMHO, well constructed, thought out arguments presented in a professional manner always win, regardless of truth. I'd say don't let it devolve into a pissing match, but I guess it already has.

From the Exodus Guild Website - http://www.exo-guild.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1829
KAYWARRIOR
The One and Only
Exodus Officer


The rumors are indeed true. We have been suspended for 72 hours for:

Offense: Abuse of Game Mechanics
Details: Circumvention of normal combat mechanics to defeat the Yogg-Saron encounter inside the Ulduar raid instance.

In our many attempts at trying to figure out a way to defeat Yogg zero
watcher, we found a way to use bugged game mechanics to make phase 3
easier in zero watcher then one watcher.

The bug is when someone is left inside the brain room of Yogg-Saron,
they can still get aggro on the adds that spawn in phase 3. That means
if you have someone getting healing aggro in the brain room, they will
get aggro on the adds, which cause them to evade in place and allows
for all of your raids dps to be focused on Yogg.

We discovered this mechanic on a wipe, and decided to see if we could
actually get it to work. The first attempt after that wipe, we realized
it worked, and went with it and killed it on that attempt. We also
filed a formal bug report on Blizzard's website.

Yes, it is 100% our fault for using a bug on such a significant boss
fight, however I would say there are some absolute factors to go off of
here that kind of forced us into it. We wouldn't have had to use this
technique to kill this encounter if it was actually killable to begin
with, so please, Blizzard, make your encounters killable in the future.
Lets take a moment to think about the other encounter that was deemed
not killable mathematically in Ulduar.. Oh yeah 2min Hodir, I remember
a certain guild killing it in this state by using an exploit.. they
were not banned, any reason why Blizzard?

First off I just want to say, if I was given the chance to erase
history and do it again I would without question do it. These last 72
hours watching Ensidia cry "Exploit!" and bitch non-stop have been
absolutely hilarious. You guys are like a lot of other little european
babies, who lack sportsmanship. Pretty sure when you guys exploited
your way through this instance and past instances, my guild didn't cry
non-stop until you were banned. Pot calling the kettle black?

What about when you guys exploited Freya trash to kill Hodir? Not only
that, but then you proceeded to e-mail your Blizzard contacts and had
it hoxfixed before anyone even knew that you exploited it in this
manner. This allowed for you to focus on more fights with your new 239
ilvl items that you got from exploited a kill, while everyone else was
holding their dicks because you exploited and got the exploit fixed the
same day.

Blizzard if you are going to pick sides, make it a little less obvious...

Was Nihilum/Ensidia ever banned for using "Clever game mechanics" on.....

C'thun (Know anything about a disgusting Oozling Kungen?)
Lady Vashj.....Respawns?
Twins...No video from first kill Kungen? Sat on a torch?
Hodir....Flower power?
Mimiron...JoL stacking?

I didn't think so.

Lets just say that Ensidia stacks the cards in their favor every chance
they can get, who knows what other exploits they have used, and if they
were to have discovered this bug I'm sure they would have used it just
as they used flower trash on Hodir.

Exodus

P.S. The kill video will be uploaded to YouTube soon, check back for updates. Subscribe to know when the video drops: https://www.youtube.com/user/jjmessina23

A couple of things I think are a bit funny about the Exodus post:

1. They cheated and they knew they cheated (then they admitted they cheated after they got caught).

2. They implied it was Blizzards fault that they cheated because the fight was unbeatable (a high end raiding guild asking for a nerf when so many are complaining about them...mmmm).

Now I don't follow top end raiding so I don't know who's who or what's what so it would have been nice if they could have provided some links to prove some of the accusations that they've made.

Without links to prove their points it doesn't mean anything and makes me feel like they are deflecting attention away from what they did to replace this story with something else at the top of everyone's sites.

When I finished reading the post by Exodus I was thinking about two things. Did Nihilum/Ensidia cheat on previous encounters? Does Blizzard show favortism to certain guilds?

Notice that I wasn't thinking about the fact the Exodus cheated, they new they cheated, then they admitted they cheated after they got caught.

* begins looking for informaation on past exploits *

* does google search for "guild favortism in wow" *

Wait a minute....who's Exodus?

Oh yeah.....the American flag and little video really ends the Exodus post with a bang.

Doesn't make American guilds look bad all.

(Maybe the European guilds use similiar tactics....I don't know)

Well, all the top raiding guild abuse game mechanics one way or another. I wouldn't call that cheating but rather creative thinking.

[left]"First off I just want to say, if I was given the chance to erase history and do it again I would without question do it. These last 72+ hours watching Ensidia cry "Exploit!" and bitch non-stop have been absolutely hilarious. You guys are like a lot of other little european babies, who lack sportsmanship. Pretty sure when you guys exploited your way through this instance and past instances, my guild didn't cry non-stop until you were banned. Pot calling the kettle black?"

I would have to concur with that sentiment...Ensidia has become my little sister. She constantly annoys you, and does things you know that you know if you were caught doing, you would have the shit knocked outta you, but you don’t go whining to mom and dad because snitches are even more annoying. When you finally do something of a similar nature, she goes running to mom and dad and you get in trouble. I, for one, am completely elated that Blizzard has decided to treat Ensidia like a 7 y/o little girl who gets upset and cries and whines. They have, essentially, knocked the shit out of Exodus, then turned around, put on their happy face and patted Ensidia on the head and said, “there, there, you will get the world firsts, don’t you worry.” I can only imagine how they plan to handle Ensidia when they are old enough to start menstruating. Let’s hope Blizzard knows what PMS on an overly spoiled 14 y/o is like, and if they don’t, well all the better.

according to the WoW Insider Podcast this weekend....Exodus supposedly sent in a GM Ticket when they killed Yogg +0 using the bug and told them about the specific bug and how it effected the fight itself....so im kinda wondering why they were banned for 72hrs if they had reported the bug itself.....Ensidia has done several "questionable" tactics or bugs/exploits, whatever you want to call them...and they have not been suspended at all...really makes you wonder

Divo wrote:

Still waiting for confirmation on this as i think most of the community is. But it would appear this has been achieved by a chinese guild THE STARS.

So if it is legit then Ensidia clearly were wrong that it couldnt be done and Exodus' pathetic "well we wouldnt have to do this if blizz made it killable" whine is blown out the water.

They got caught up in the moment, they cheated they got caught out, end of.

well they are definately going to be crying "cheat" again....but it has to be legit, cause Blizz hotfixed the fight so you cant EVADE the mobs anymore, that is unless they discovered a "new" bug...the video of their kill is only the last 20 seconds or whatever...so if they did cheat it, they were smarter than exodus and didnt post their video lol....so sounds to me like Ensidia is late and will def be QQing about it...2 days we will see this guild banned as well you watch...only because Ensidia didnt get the World First

Divo wrote:

I will wait a couple days like most to see what comes of it and its legitimacy. In all fairness Im not concerned about who cheats and who gets caught. What has concerned me in this whole incident is the childish behaviour that has followed with this "Well Ensidia this and Exodus that" which quickly became we "US this and EU that". Just makes the raiding community look bad imo.

I agree, but its like this is every gaming venue ive been in..From PC to Xbox Live, there is and probably always will be, a very fine line between EU and US...Not all but some people just cant let it go, and the competitive nature of this game in particular, really doesnt help that..

I personally don't care who gets World Firsts and all that, but I also dont think, regardless what guild it is, that no one shoudl be able to glitch/cheat/exploit or do anything other than Blizzard intended the boss's to be killed without being banned...suspension for 72 hrs is nothing...pretty much just gives u a break from the screen and you dont lose anything....

but the bad mouthing needs to stop, people already jump to conclusions and stereotype as it is....the raiding scene got better with Ulduar, but it also became more drama driven as well, and thats sad cause its an awesome community to be in

FYI Stars, the Chinese guild on a Taiwanese server legitimately completed the Alone in the Darkness achievement. There goes the impossible argument. Youtube link to final 5%

yeah its definately legit....

the strat they used is posted in great detail on MMO-Champion.....well played Stars...throw that in Ensidias face..LOVE IT!!!

Grats to those guys, looks normal and that cheer on TS is what I raid for!